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I have been looking at the wonderful fantasy art of Danish illustrator Kay Nielsen (1886-1957); and it seems that in the original fairy tale as collected by the Brothers Grimm, the prince's visits were discovered when Rapunzel asked the witch, "Why is my dress getting tight across my tummy?"

In later versions, that part was extirpated, as being too racy for the little readers...so, can you help dear Rapunzel, what IS THE PROBLEM, here? (You see the witch's solution, as depicted by Nielsen...)

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4 Answers

TheOtherTink

LOL, I'm afraid the witch's solution came too late.

Um... unless she was going to do something else with those scissors...  :O :O :O

Virginia TheOtherTink

Things DO seem to be a day late and dollar short, here, Good Morning O'Tink!

TheOtherTink TheOtherTink

Good morning, Virginia!

Speaking of scissors, here is another children's tale from that same era, this one in Germany.

It is all too obvious that the moral of the story of "Konrad the Thumbsucker" was also meant to apply to other body parts.  :O :angel: :) :D

http://germanstories.vcu.edu/struwwel/daumen_e.html

Virginia TheOtherTink

OtherTink...I followed your link to its author, and Heinrich Hoffman (1809-1894) was, it appears, quite an interesting person! A physician and a psychiatrist...although apparently he kinda backed his way into psychiatry...

"(Hoffman's) statistical compilations show that up to 40% of (his patients) with acute cases of what would today be called schizophrenia were discharged after a few weeks or months, and stayed in remission for years and perhaps permanently. Always a skeptic, Hoffmann voices doubts whether this was due to any therapy he may have given them."

* * *

Schizophrenia is one thing I have looked into a bit, in the course of my life, and 40% remission is HUGE!

I have loved Grimm Bros. because of the archetypal qualities in the Black Forest tales, and Hoffman clearly works with a kind of symbology also...:D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Hoffmann_(author)#Professional_life_as_a_physician_and_psychiatrist

TheOtherTink TheOtherTink

@ Virginia,

Yes, a 40% remission rate would be huge. I think it's only been in the last 50 years or so that anti-psychotic drugs that really work have been developed.  Before that, it was shock therapy and cold baths. :(

Virginia TheOtherTink

The last fifty years...not long, relatively. I have been interested in the experience of the Nobel laureate John Forbes Nash, who endured some of the more primitive treatments. He also claimed (as have other schizophrenics) that the meds make you feel flatline...lifeless. 

For him, his 'cure' (after several decades) was apparently that he just made the choice to live within conventional reality...

TheOtherTink TheOtherTink

@ Virginia,

That's remarkable, that Nash was able to make it a matter of choice.  I thought the problem was that schizophrenics in general could not tell the difference.

Virginia TheOtherTink

Yes O'Tink, quite remarkable of him...apparently however, it's not uncommon among schizophrenics; typically after many years/decades...you regain some power of choice. Not everyone can do it, obviously...but I have actually seen it happen, a friend did it, in fact I helped him. 

So I felt this sudden yearning to have met Heinrich Hoffman...that's just incredible, up to 40%!

Marianne TheOtherTink

Lol, Virginia, I couldn't help chuckling about Hoffmann's pseudonyms, namely "Heulalius von Heulenburg" (I am sure that T(h)ink will giggle about the word game: the verb and noun heulen / das Heulen refers to howl / howling, but if you remove the "H", you have "die Eule", in English the same, you remove the "h" and get the owl ...

Marianne TheOtherTink

@T(h)ink

Talking of scissors reminded me also of Edward Scissorhands:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Scissorhands

trimming bushes, trees and hair.


And - well - some people talked about "cutting what's protruding", but did not give more details ...

Human nature could and still can be very cruel and sick - as defined by psychiatrists and psychologists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadomasochism

:O:O:O

Virginia TheOtherTink

Marianne it is indeed interesting of Hoffman's pseudonyms! 

TheOtherTink TheOtherTink

:D :D :D

Marianne

Lol - the illustrations are, indeed, very special, and fairy tale "Rapunzel" (from the Grimm brother's collection) has many versions and origins:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kay_Nielsen

http://artpassions.net/nielsen/nielsen.html
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapunzel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrosinella

http://eifel.wikia.com/wiki/The_tale_of_Persinette

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte-Rose_de_Caumont_de_La_Force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana%C3%AB

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh

 

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm012a.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangled 


Strange, there have been, some time ago, certain studies and analyses about various fairy tales relating to psychological "diagnoses" and certain perverse thoughts ...


Virginia Marianne

Marianne, I had not even known of the Shahnameh ... is there overlap with the Black Forest fairy tales, do you know?

Marianne Marianne

@Virginia

I can only suppose that old myths, legends and fairytales were spread through exchanges, i.e. communication, interpretations, trade, wars, invasions, alliances, travellers, nomads and migrations between the different population groups, and there were often links and alliances between ruling dynasties, among aristocrats and leading groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_intermarriage

Virginia Marianne

Marianne, I recently came upon an example of how the tales spread...from Germany, there are myths and legends of the Undine, or Ondine...beautiful water nymphs or spirits who would sometimes come to love human males and give up their immortality to marry them and become human.

Well Hans Christian Andersen in Denmark found those old Undine stories, and pretty soon he came up with THE LITTLE MERMAID! I copied this whole story, did some editing, and kept it!

http://www.storynory.com/2013/06/06/undine/

Marianne Marianne

@Virginia

Oh yes, I remember, and Undine was based on tales referring to Mélusine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine


Virginia Marianne

Marianne it is an interesting link...such luminaries as Mendelssohn and Goethe got in on the act here, producing versions of Melusine!

Marianne Marianne

Yes, Virginia, most of these legendary tales, heroes and anti-heroes inspired various stories, tragedies and artworks, novels, ballads, operas, songs, movies, paintings, cartoons, studies, etc., etc.

:)



Marianne Marianne

@Virginia

Now that I think of it; the Franks, for instance, were one of the main links, after the Roman Empire, between present-day states Germany and France, the Saxons between Germany and England, the Norsemen between the Scandinavian countries and Germany, Normandy, Great Britain, Belgium, Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic states, Poland, Greenland, Canada, and also South Italia, etc., by raids and by settlements:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen


Migration Period:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period


Another important link between Asia and Europe was the Silk Road:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road

Rooster

Maybe this version of the story would shed some light on the subject! :D


Virginia Rooster

Rooster, I think it is likely my old browser, but I cannot get your link to open, I just get a blue question mark!

Virginia Rooster

Rooster I think I got it!

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Marianne Rooster
Hitman

Now this is Rapunzel to me! :D


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Virginia Hitman

Hey, Hitman!!! 

Now THOSE are some beautiful long long locks...Carla Rapunzel...

Marianne Hitman
...