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Can you name a heroic serviceman from your own country, and another from history?

+3 votes
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Dec 30, 2016 in Arts & Humanities by Didge (2,777 points)

5 Answers

TheOtherTink Dec 30, 2016
Didge TheOtherTink Dec 30, 2016

Good choices. I knew about Cavell, of course, but not Kirkland. He makes interesting reading.

I have a kind of fascinated horror about the American Civil War. I love the music, I've read some of the stories, I've read the statistics, and am kind of bewildered that for many people it never seems to have ended.

I was listening to "Marching Through Georgia" the other day and can't help thinking that a line like "treason fled before us for resistance was in vain" would still be very provocative for many. 

Thanks for an interesting answer. 

TheOtherTink TheOtherTink Dec 30, 2016

Thank you, Didge.

Yes, "Marching through Georgia" is still highly unpopular in the South for both its taunting lyrics and melody.

And of course General Sherman, the practitioner of total war who commanded the march, is not popular either.

And this bloodiest of American wars was so needless!  By 1880, slavery had been abolished (at least de jure) everywhere in the Americas, north and south. I think Brazil was the last.

Didge TheOtherTink Dec 30, 2016

Was slavery the prime cause? I know that's the one we always associate with the war but was the attempted secession associated with anythng else?

And are we likely to get a replay if California one day attempts to secede?

TheOtherTink TheOtherTink Dec 30, 2016

@ Didge:

I don't think the philosophical or moral question of slavery was the prime cause, but the plantation owners in the South had, or thought they had, a tremendous economic stake in slavery, having overlooked the fact that with industrialization and mechanization, slavery was becoming obsolete. Nevertheless, they had been doing their best to protect slavery for decades, with political compromises about which newly-admitted states to the Union would permit slavery and which would not, based on the fear that eventually slavery would be voted out of existence. There were also other economic issues, the North favoring tariffs on imported manufactured goods (to encourage domestic manufacturing), and the South opposing tariffs.

Lincoln himself summarized it very well in his second inaugural address of March, 1865:

" One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease."

Rooster Dec 30, 2016

All the young men who went to Vietnam and those like my brother, who never returned. They are the true heroes. 

From History ? General George S. Patton.

image

TheOtherTink Rooster Dec 30, 2016

Thank you for your service, Rooster, and prayers for your brother and all those who did not return.

Didge Rooster Dec 30, 2016

Had I allowed myself the option, you'd have been one of my choices, Rooster. I know what you accomplished, and I know that there were many others who risked and gave everything for their country, but as a representative of that group, you would get my vote. 

Patton? No surprise there. I know your admiration for the man.

xix Dec 31, 2016

I could, but it wouldn't be anyone you've ever heard of.

Didge xix Dec 31, 2016

Wouldn't need to be. The honour would still be theirs. 

Marianne Jan 2, 2017

May I cite a famous mountain rescuer who is also part of our history and one of the founders of the Swiss Air Rescue (Rega)? He saved hundreds of lives:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Geiger

There is also the Piccard family, namely Auguste (bathyscaph), Jacques, and, presently, Bertrand Piccard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Piccard

or

Henri Dunant, founder of the Red Cross, is, probably, one of the most cited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Dunant


But there were and still are many nameless, humble heroes and altruists, including many women, who went forgotten ...



Didge Marianne Jan 2, 2017

Thank you, Marianne. Fine choices. 

Marianne Marianne Jan 2, 2017

You're welcome, Didge, and thank you. :)

A very happy New Year to you and your beloved ones!

image

Didge Marianne Jan 2, 2017

Thank you Marianne. That's a very beautiful scene -- the sort I can only dream about. I've never experienced such a setting at first hand. Happy new year to you, too. 

Marianne Marianne Jan 3, 2017

Thank you, Didge. Of course, you are having quite a different, very dry climate on your side.

But you have also your Snowy Mountains, while we are having summer:

image


Korvo Jan 2, 2017

Tecumseh, Tribal chief who fought with us against the invaders from south of us. (We won, even burned down the White House in Washington)

Captain Fred McCall, WWI flying ace from Calgary.

Didge Korvo Jan 3, 2017

Unusual but very, very appropriate choices. Thanks, Korvo. 

TheOtherTink Korvo Jan 3, 2017

@ Korvo:

I thought it was the Brits who burned Washington, not that it did them any long-term good. No less a personage than the Duke of Wellington declared the War of 1812 a draw in 1814.

"I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of territory from America ... You have not been able to carry it into the enemy's territory, notwithstanding your military success and now undoubted military superiority, and have not even cleared your own territory on the point of attack. You cannot on any principle of equality in negotiation claim a cessation of territory except in exchange for other advantages which you have in your power ... Then if this reasoning be true, why stipulate for the uti possidetis? You can get no territory: indeed, the state of your military operations, however creditable, does not entitle you to demand any."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Korvo Korvo Jan 3, 2017

The British may have been in charge, but it was Canadians who fought.  And the only reason we left Washington, we ran out of Canadian beer, and didn't like the watered down stuff in the U:S. LOL

TheOtherTink Korvo Jan 3, 2017

You should have hired the Hessians again.  Only Germans know how to make decent beer.  :D

Marianne Korvo Jan 3, 2017

@T(h)ink

Lol - you forgot the Belgians, the Bohemians, the Bavarians, and quite a few others! :angel::D


TheOtherTink Korvo Jan 3, 2017

@ Marianne:

Yes, but it was Hessian mercenary soldiers that were hired by the British in the American Revolution.  :D

And yes, I know that they make decent beer in a few places outside of Germany, although the Labatt's brewery in Canada is not one of them. :angel: :D :D

image


Marianne Korvo Jan 4, 2017

@T(h)ink

Oh yes, these Hessian troops were rented for service to other armies, including Great Britain, by the landgraves or princes of smaller German states (namely Landgrave Frederic II of Hesse-Kassel), but most of these soldiers were "under serfdom" in their German countries. Their fate was not really pleasant, all the more that George Washington could count on his allies from France and, of course, Lafayette:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessian_(soldier)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Island

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown


Wait a minute: Hessian beer? I think that I had once "Henninger Beer" in Frankfurt.

image

:D




Korvo Korvo Jan 4, 2017

Well, I have learned one thing "On this site, never, never mention beer, even in jest" 

Marianne Korvo Jan 4, 2017

@Korvo

I must have missed a discussion; can you explain what happened?

:O (oops) :)



TheOtherTink Korvo Jan 4, 2017
@ Marianne:
Interesting... I didn't know the famous Ansbach-Bayreuth regiment had been 'rented' out to the British, and surrendered at Yorktown with the rest of Cornwallis's army.  And they weren't Hessians at all; it seems the Americans referred to all German mercenaries as 'Hessians,' much as in the Civil War, recruits of German extraction were (even more incorrectly) called 'Dutch,' a custom that persists to this very day in Pennsylvania Dutch country.

http://www.exulanten.com/delta.html

What a come-down for Ansbach-Bayreuth from their glory days at Hohenfriedberg. :O

P.S. It seems Frederick the Great did not approve of German nobles sending their subjects out to fight in foreign wars as mercenaries just to raise money.

P.P.S. I don't know why they show Bismarck in this clip (at 0:30); he was more than 100 years after Hohenfriedberg.

TheOtherTink Korvo Jan 4, 2017

@ Korvo:

LOL, the beer discussion did plumb undreamed-of depths... :D

TheOtherTink Korvo Jan 4, 2017
@ Marianne:

LOL, I remember we once were having lunch at a sidewalk cafe in Frankfurt, when a street singer with a guitar came by and started singing folk songs. When he finished, he shook his can of coins, as if expecting a tip for his (less than stellar) efforts. Instead, I sang a verse of "Es, es, es und es, es ist ein harter Schluss, weil, weil, weil und weil, weil ich aus Frankfurt muss..."  He laughed, and started to walk away, but I gave him a Euro anyway.  He then had enough money to buy his lunch, which he then enjoyed at a nearby table. :)

Marianne Korvo Jan 4, 2017

A nice experience, as for myself, we had a rather hilarious traffic adventure - long ago; instead of finding the access to the post office at the railway station, we landed on the motorway, i.e. highway (and I was not the driver or the guide, as it was the first time that I was in Frankfurt, and the driver who should have known the way felt lost). After about two hours, I noticed the famous "Henning(er) Tower" from far and suggested to try there. And so, we had our beer in the panoramic restaurant at the top of the tower - lol - with a great laugh.

:)


Marianne Korvo Jan 4, 2017

Weird indeed, regarding Bismarck - and interesting as regards the Ansbach-Bayreuth regiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Hohenfriedberger

Did you notice that with the video you are sharing, there's also a full version of "The Gods Must Be Crazy"?


By the way, I had the occasion to visit the Sanssouci Palace in Potsdam: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanssouci


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